Rian and Nathan Johnson are consistently proving to us all that family can in fact work well together in the most productive and thrilling ways.
After making multiple full feature films together over the past two decades, these collaborative cousins show no signs of slowing down, as Rian continues to write and direct the Knives Out film, while Nathan composes the music throughout these popular mysteries.
With Wake Up Dead Man, their third Knives Out cinematic achievement for the big screen, this creative duo brings arguably their darkest and most layered Knives Out yet to audiences – and by far, their most personal.
Premiering November 26 in select theaters and streaming December 12 on Netflix, Wake Up Dead Man continues to assemble a clever mix of seasoned actors and thoughtful newcomers to tell a memorable tale around murder, suspicion and disbelief. With Daniel Craig still leading the way as Detective Benoit Blanc, celebrated fresh faces include Josh O’Connor as Father Jud Duplenticy, Glenn Close as Martha Delacroix and Josh Brolin as Monsignor Jefferson Wicks – just to name a few, as secrets from the townspeople within this upstate New York church community start to come to light.
I sat down with Nathan and Rian to uncover the origin of their shared filmmaking interests, their creative process in building out these beloved mysteries and what exactly makes one another the ideal person to keep teaming up with.
Jeff Conway: When it comes to your family dynamic and your relationship as cousins, when was that initial moment when you were like – Hey, we might have a good collaboration here that we could do for quite a while?
Rian Johnson: I think it was so early that it doesn’t feel like there was a moment. It feels like we were just kind of always hanging out, and the way we hung out was making movies together, since we were so young. The instant we had access to a camera is the answer.
Nathan Johnson: Totally. You can do this with a camera? Before that, it was plays at Christmas Eve. It kind of feels like we were never not doing this.
Rian: And our band – our briefly-lived band, Weirder Than Al, where we took Weird Al songs and then changed the lyrics to up the weirdness even.
Nathan: Very meta.
Rian: We were spoofing Weirder Than Al songs and we were definitely punching above our weight class.
Jeff: I’m curious too, Rian, when it comes to Wake Up Dead Man, thinking of this third story, what really sparked the story that leans into, I believe, religion, the church, social media and public interest, as well as the many different types of people that can be found within a given community like this?
Rian: Well, it started with wanting to do, first of all, something kind of more grounded for the third one. And so, my way into that was picking something personal to make it about, and something that I felt like I kind of deeply knew. Both Nathan and I grew up very Christian, and I can speak for Nathan as well – we’re not anymore. That’s something that I have a lot of complicated, strong feelings about – and very kind of genuinely complicated, multifaceted feelings about. So, it started with just sort of the challenge of – Can I have kind of a genuine conversation with myself about this huge topic that means a lot to me, in the context of a big, entertaining Benoit Blanc murder mystery? Because if I can, that’s truly exciting for me, because that means going forward, what else can we get into these movies? An opportunity for me to just do something very meaningful for myself, and the fact that Nathan and I had a connection about this topic also made the process really meaningful with him.
Jeff: Nathan, my next question is for you. What is your creative process like in crafting the music behind films like Wake Up Dead Man, and at what stage with Rian do you often get a real sense of the mood and direction to best complement and enhance this given narrative?
Nathan: I think the lovely thing about these is I get to start really early. Usually, a composer is brought in right at the very end of the process, and sometimes that can be like a one-month dash, but I start thinking about it even before the script stage, when Rian kind of first tells me what is bubbling. When he was talking about this one, I just got so excited. Then, to the point in the edit where I first watched it, and this one made me cry, which was, I think, the first time that’s happened with one of Rian’s movies. So, this one felt like it is darker – it’s more gothic. There’s like this underlying dread there that we were talking about discovering, but then also it takes you to this moment that I feel is a moment of real generosity. It’s kind of a meaningful dance to get to start in this very dread-filled place, but then hopefully end in a place that feels like, as I observed the performances and the characters and the things happening on-screen, it’s kind of something that I want to see more of in the world.
Jeff: Rian and Nathan, some people, I’m sure you’ve heard before, say – Don’t work with family – but when it comes to you two, are there aspects of your personal and professional relationship, being cousins and having the lifelong bond that you do, that has been most beneficial and an added blessing within the symmetry of your work together?
Rian: I think definitely growing up with someone, there’s both a shorthand and also, and this is the case with Nathan, it’s the case with Steve [Yedlin], my cinematographer, I’ve worked with, I think it’s very hard to offend each other. So, I think there’s a level of honesty back-and-forth on both sides, both when Nathan first reads my script and when Nathan first sends me cues, we’re always saying exactly what we think because we’re like an old married couple at this point. We’re not going anywhere, so why not?
Nathan: Just to piggyback on that – I mean for these, I really feel like my job is to try to get inside Rian’s head as much as possible and to help him tell the story. As the person steering the ship, I trust him so much in that regard. So, that speed of like I’d show him something and it’s like – Oh no, this isn’t feeling right – I actually really appreciate that because it helps us find what is going to be right that much quicker. This one was kind of a process, as well, especially because of the meaning that it was carrying and for both of us, it was like – Okay, we actually need to kind of like even break away from what the past movies have been musically even more and dig deeper, and find something that was going to really kind of inform what this was. It’s a big part of that – often, I’m writing melodic motifs that will take us through a movie. Most of the motifs in this movie actually ended up being conceptual. The jewel motif that we kind of trace through the whole movie, the very first thing we hear is the sound of the entire string section, just scratching their bows against the strings, almost like a nails on a chalkboard sound. Then, that resolves into a single pure tone. That is like a conceptual motif, but it’s this tug of war between ugliness and beauty, and between light and dark, which also Rian and Steve are doing visually – this dipping back-and-forth between light and darkness. So, it just feels like such a fun thing to say like – Okay, we’re not doing melodic themes here. We’re doing something guttural – something dread build under the surface.
Jeff: But I think you both would agree too, in Wake Up Dead Man, there were moments in the film where the story and the music kind of were helping us like “throw off the scent” – so to speak, where you’d make us think we should be thinking maybe deeper – or maybe you’re giving me a clue, but you’re actually in a way throwing off the scent. Was that maybe some of your thought process, of sometimes using music to your advantage to sway audiences, one way or the other?
Rian: Well, it’s a tricky game, whether it’s using music or anything else. Actually, one of the first things we’ve learned making these movies is you never have to do that. You never have to throw red herrings or misdirect the audience because nobody can misdirect the audience better than themselves, when they’re sitting down to watch a mystery movie. So, I guess the answer effectively to what you’re saying is yes, because I think the music does do that – but I think our goal in every scene is just to emotionally tell the story of that scene as well as possible, and if the audience is swept up in the current of the story that we want them to be drawn through the movie with, that is kind of the only misdirection that works because that means they’re entertained, as opposed to their puzzle brain ticking about – What does this mean? What does this mean? I think that’s not only the most effective misdirection, it’s the only effective misdirection.
Nathan: It’s nice to not get too meta and too stacked in these. And for me, it is really nice to know all I need to do here is help tell emotionally what we need to be feeling for the characters in that moment. I don’t think either of us get that clever when we’re at that stage of the process, but that’s the other thing that – and Rian says this a lot – these movies don’t work if it’s just a puzzle-solving exercise. As the composer, I get to really tap into the emotion of the characters through the whole thing. As is true with any movie, that’s the thing that has to be working for the audience to stay engaged.
Jeff: Nathan and Rian, we have Daniel Craig continuing on, which we always love, and he still steers the ship on-screen with you all. You’ve worked with big ensemble casts before on these Knives Out films, but what is it about having Daniel still, but also Josh O’Connor, Josh Brolin, Glenn Close, Jeremy Renner, Cailee Spaeny, Kerry Washington, Mila Kunis and more that has made this filmmaking experience maybe different from your previous two films?
Rian: Yeah, I mean, every single one of these it’s a different experience because it’s a different group of people – and ultimately, that’s what filmmaking is – kind of jumping into a big bouncy castle with a different group of people, in order to tame it. With this one, I mean, I’m still kind of dazzled by the cast that we got. Everyone you mentioned, Glenn Close was someone who was just, for me, a bucket list actor to work with. She was so incredibly cool and it was such a joy. She shows up every day to set, just with the energy of someone who just decided to get into acting and there’s nothing more exciting than the notion of being on the set doing it. She has that passion for the work that inspired, I know, myself, and I think also the youngest people on-set were looking at her and just thinking – Wow, she loves being here.
Jeff: Nathan, if I can start with you with this next one, but I know you both would agree. I know you guys are both probably pretty adamant about having the opportunity and the option of having this go to the big screen. Having films of yours hit the big screen and then go to streaming. As filmmakers and just, I know, lovers of movies, what does that mean to you to still have that theatrical experience opportunity with your projects?
Nathan: It’s something that I grew up with. It’s hard to erase anything that occupies that big of a part of like what I remember as being amazing about childhood and all the way up through adulthood. It’s my favorite way to experience things. Yeah, I love it.
Jeff: How about for you, Rian? What does it mean to you to still also have your Knives Out films accessible to people on the big screen, before streaming?
Rian: Walter Murch has this new book that he’s just written that’s called Suddenly Something Clicked and he talks about what makes the theatrical experience what it is. He talks about how it’s not the realities, it’s not the big screen, it’s not the sound, it’s not even so much the isolation of being in a theater. It’s the crowd around you. It’s the fact that it’s a social experience. Specifically with these movies, it’s not like they’re a bigger spectacle than an action movie or something, but they’re made to be enjoyed and laughed with and gasped at, and they’re made to evoke reactions from the audience. You, as the audience member, are going experience those so much more intensely, if you’re shoulder-to-shoulder with a theater full of people who are feeling it, too. That’s the real kind of engine of what makes these things work. Not that you can’t experience that watching at home – I think you will, but in the theater, it’s a whole other ball of wax. So, as many people as can see this in the theater, these movies in the theaters, that’s what I want.
Jeff: I saw it on a big screen at the Netflix office and it was gorgeous up there. So, I hope everybody gets a chance to see it that way.
Rian: There you go!
Jeff: I also love from both you guys, Nathan and Rian, 2005’s Brick and 2012’s Looper. You’ve been making feature films for a while together. So, what are you enjoying most about the modern ways of filmmaking and the industry’s trends today, and are there any aspects of filmmaking and the business from yesteryear that you both wish were still in place today?
Rian: You can get out of your head and sort of mess yourself up if you start thinking too much about current trends or thinking in the mode of – God, they don’t make them like they used to. I wish that we could make that. I don’t know – my attitude has always been you can make anything you want. I mean, it’s hard to get anything made – it’s hard to get literally anything made. So, when you make something, you can make it whatever you want. It just requires maybe a little bit of stupidity/bravery on your part. You can do it – that movie you’re pointing at and saying, – Boy, you can never make that today. No, you can make that today – you just have to go out and do it. I know for myself, anytime I get into that kind of thinking, I’m suspicious of it as being maybe a crutch I’m using, in order to excuse my own lack of fearlessness in doing exactly what I want to do. Making something that people aren’t asking for because they haven’t seen it before, but you want to take that risk and see maybe people will be into this.
Jeff: Nathan, any thoughts on today’s ways and ways that you miss of yesteryear, potentially?
Nathan: Maybe I’ll answer it a slightly different way, but I feel like what is exciting to all of us as filmmakers is when we step into a situation and we don’t quite know what we’re doing and how to do it. You talked about Brick – that felt like that whole thing. It was the first time we had done that on that level. Then, you talk about Knives Out – and for me, that was the first time that we got to use an entire orchestra at Abbey Road. With all of these movies, Rian just keeps continuing to really force himself to hit them a different way, whether that’s from structure or from a crazy idea to try. So, I honestly don’t think about it like yesterday and today, and it used to be this way. I think the thing is if you can be okay with that unease of knowing that you’re just out of your depth a little bit, that’s what makes making something fun.
Jeff: Rian, if I may for this next question, I’m going start with you and then I’ll go to Nathan. A lot of people don’t make this time as family, as collaborators naturally, so I love to do this during my interviews. So Rian, what would you say makes Nathan an ideal, enjoyable and an effective collaborator alongside you? And Nathan, what is it about Rian that makes him an ideal, enjoyable and an effective collaborator beside you?
Rian: Nathan is really tall, so when I walk in the room with him, I feel like I get a little more respect, just because I have a tall person with me. That’s pretty much it.
Jeff: Nothing emotionally, just physically. Got it!
Rian: The essence of what we do is the same as when we were 10 years old doing it, which is everything’s on the table. When directors talk about looking for a composer to work with, often times it’s like – Well, this composer kind of does this, and this composer kind of does that, and what kind of field does the movie have, and will they fit it? I always just think about how lucky I am to have a collaborator, where I literally feel like we can do anything, you know? We can attempt to do anything – put it that way. I really feel like every time we sit down to make something, the conversation of – Okay, what could this be that we haven’t quite tried before? is so exciting, and that’s because it’s not that Nathan does X or Nathan does Y. It’s because Nathan is Nathan, and we’ve been doing it together since we were 10. You just make that kind of leap of faith, you know?
Jeff: I love that. Nathan, thoughts on Rian?
Nathan: There’s something that I think is really great, and I know this because I’ve talked to other composer friends and understand what it can be sometimes. I think one of the things that I love about Rian is he’s not judging the music by his whims or his taste. Everything always goes back to the story, which feels as a collaborator, it feels like there’s always a due north, and that is findable. We might not always find it the first time, but it’s not like Rian is sort of a god at the top of a pyramid, moving to his own whims. The way I often think about it is he is at the top of the pyramid leading the ship, but really, what’s at the very, very top of the pyramid is the story, and that’s the true north that we’re all following, which means that when I suggest something and we put it up against picture, if Rian’s not feeling it, it’s not because like – Oh, I don’t like that instrument. It’s that he understands something about what the story needs to be doing that I haven’t clicked into yet, and that feels like a really, really wonderful way to find this thing – to know that we all have a true north star that we’re trying to find together.
Jeff: Last two questions really quick for you two. Obviously, this is the third Knives Out film with Wake Up Dead Man, but do you both already envision a certain number of these types of films ahead, or are you simply open and easygoing to where this film franchise could go next?
Rian: You said the F-word.
Jeff: Is it a good F-word? Do you like that F-word?
Rian: I hate that F-word.
Jeff: My apologies. I won’t use it again.
Rian: McDonald’s restaurants are franchises. I do think that part of it is just, we don’t really think of this as a franchise or IP. We don’t think of it as building a certain number of them, or not. We just think of them as this being the most exciting movie to make next. After this experience, specifically, I’m just so energized about the potential of these things. It’s not going be the next one – I’m writing something totally different to do next, but it’s not because I’m burnt out on these. It’s just what I have in the hopper next – but yeah man, I’m already getting excited about what the next Benoit Blanc mystery can be down the line.
Jeff: Lastly then, for both of you, if you gentlemen could stand up at the front of the church in this Wake Up Dead Man cinematic universe and could give these many conflicted characters some supportive advice or comforting words that would have been rather useful for them to know or hear, I’m curious, what would you say to this latest group of Knives Out characters, if only you could?
Rian: Oh boy! I mean, look – like all of us in this world, I think they’re beyond help – but it’s okay, because Benoit Blanc is on the case.
Jeff: Nathan, any thoughts too?
Nathan: I’d say listen to Jud.
Rian: Yeah, listen to Jud. WWJD – What would Jud do?